Precision Image Calculation

Hmmm. Does "Y'shua, Son of YHWH"* allow his followers to appear in porn? I think there's something in Leviticus about not starring in for-pay net porn.

If there's nothing about porn, I'm sure there's some stuff in the bible about hypocrisy. Maybe we could catch him with one of those rules. :)

*Y'shua, Son of YHWH = Jesus

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plaidninja.livejournal.com

I guess I can't speak cause I've never been unfairly slighted by an A-list bear, but, I couldn't give a shit about them. So they have a clique. Big deal. Even if I looked the part would I want to hang out in a "club for guys who look nice"? Uh no...I have real freinds but thanks anyway.
But it's not really about who's freinds with who.
It's about who's fucking with who. And that juicy little topic has been the bane of every gay subculture since the dawn of time. Why should the bear community be any different? Having a flag and a book doesn't make us less human.

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Ha! Totally true. I'm just hyper-rationalizing a played topic.

Again.

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abbazabba.livejournal.com

wow, subculture mirrors life.

I feel like I'm on an MTV show.

I'm not enough of the bear community to comment, we just have plain ole' queeny assed gay people here, who treat anything dissimilar as some kind of rodent. I hang out with straight people, and go to straight bars, it's safer and less mentally taxing.

I'd say right on to fathermoose, but he doesn't allow non-friend posting, so poo on him.

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I swear, sometimes you try too hard. What are you trying to say?

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That was a little slighting. Yeah, I do try hard and maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly enough because I don't think people were listeing to the more sublime things I was trying to say. I was really just musing.

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I was only trying to be partially bitchy. Seriously, though, I'm not sure what you were trying to say.

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The people who started the contest-mania among bears (early 90s) were mostly leather contestants who had soiled their own sandbox and so decided to come and crap all over ours; because we were their "second choice" they of course treated us with contempt. With time, they are becoming bored and moving on to new pastures. With any luck this trend will continue and we will be back to just being a bunch of low-maintenance schmoes within another five years.

BTW I think it's a red herring to talk about "the leather community" as if they were a homogenous clump - there are a few bad apples but mostly they're just guys out doing their fetish thing.

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BTW I think it's a red herring to talk about "the leather community" as if they were a homogenous clump - there are a few bad apples but mostly they're just guys out doing their fetish thing.

Good point, I'm really not too familiar with leather truth-be-known. I just get a generally bad vibe, perhaps that's intentional? ;)

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I guess my POV is that "the leather community" or "the bear community" is not really relevant to who people are ... you still have to approach people as individuals, as much as that's possible. I know some people in both groups who are stupid, deceitful, and generally bad news, but I know many many more who are just ordinary folks. It's easy to get creeped out by the few bad ones because they make such a show of their badness. You know, go with your instincts :)

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You know, I simply ignore the guys that Zach is referring to. We've got our own fair share of them here in Toronto, and they don't do anything for me. I don't aspire to be like them and shrug them off as being pathetic fucks.

As for titleholders, you know, for years I wanted to be a title holder. I ran in the Mr. Toolbox Bear contest twice just so I could try and get into the GCBH contest. The first time I came in second-last. The second time I followed up to an ex of mine. :) I never did enter again because I either missed the contest, or it's just not being run again.

The problem is, NOBODY in recent history of the bear contest in Toronto, excluding the GCBH contest, does anything with their titles. You can do two things with a title. Sit back and let everyone praise you for doing nothing and being pretty, or you can actually do something with the title and make some good.

Unfortunately either way, I see a backlash - especially at the people who want to do some good with their title. It's a real shame in that case.

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Really, though, what can you do with a silly bar contest title?

People attribute too much importance to stupid bear contest titles. I think everyone needs to admit that they're just beauty contests and move on.

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They're not always beauty contests. The GCBH contest that was held for years dedicated more points to brains than it did to brawn. It was done specifically that way so it wouldn't be a beauty contest and that it would be a more serious title. In fact, with the last Toronto Bear Ambassador contest, there were 0 points dedicated to looks.

Sure, I could setup a fundraiser and say, "Hey everyone, Iain's doing a fundraiser." Would people come to it? I'm not sure. Now if I were Mr. Toolbox Bear, or Toronto Bear Ambassador, it does actually give me a bit more clout because I'm a representative of the community just as Mr. Leather Toronto is a representative of the leather community.

Dwayne, while not everyone liked him, did a kick ass job raising funds for (the name escapes me.. I'll remember soon) a charity that deals with paediatric HIV, and the World Wildlife Fund.

It's just like the Court system. The Imperial Court of Toronto, of which I'm technically a member of, does all kinds of good work fundraising for HIV charities. I don't think the individuals by themselves could raise anywhere near the amount of money that was done.

I agree with you, the community does take itself too seriously. That said, I do think there is a place for some seriousness in the right place.

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I see your point, but I only partially agree with you.

While I do agree that the winner of a bar title can probably have somewhat more success in fundraising than the average schmoe off the street, I disagree that it's really relevant.

Why should the fact that I like fat hairy men have any bearing (pardon my use of the word) on giving to charity? Bear groups are social groups, and the bear "community" is really not much more than a bunch of fat, hairy guys who are attracted to other fat, hairy guys. Why not hold a "Mr. Spa on Maitland Asian Chicken" contest so that Mr. Spa on Maitland Asian Chicken can use his title to raise money for charity?

I think people are trying to ascribe more importance and significance to the "community" than it warrants. There are better and more relevant ways to get involved in charity than trying to base fundraisers around something that's supposed to be about having fun with a bunch of guys who look like each other.

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Well, it's up to you whether or not you want to support someone in raising funds for a charity. Speaking strictly about Toronto, that said, the "bear community", and I do believe in the idea of the bear community in Toronto since they tend to be so insular and keep to themselves, is notorious for not doing anything for the general community as a whole - whether it's for the gay community or the greater community of Toronto at large.

Bear groups are social groups, yes. The same could be said for some of the Leather groups out there too such as Spearhead. Spearhead runs a number of fundraisers for various charities, where groups like BBT don't because they only raise funds for themselves. Why is this?

I suspect a number of reasons. Leather groups were around a lot longer than Bear groups which started popping up in the 1990s. Leather groups were hit hard by HIV and AIDS in the 80s. Same with the Drag community. That doesn't mean Bears weren't, but for the most part since Bear groups have never really experienced a serious decline in membership due to losing members to HIV and AIDS, we've got this hands off so what attitude.

Bob Cole said it himself when he said that raising funds for charity is a politically correct response in an issue of BBT's Bear Poop. That from an ordained minister?! I totally disagree.

I've concentrated on HIV/AIDS charities here. That does seem to be the main focus of most GLBT community fundraisers and for a good reason. History shows we were hit hard, the government isn't doing enough and we're raising funds for the benefit of all of us.

Personally, I wouldn't limit myself to fundraising only in the "bear community" preferring to include greater community.

BTW the Spa has it's own leather title, I think. I know the Barracks does. :)

Other than donating funds myself to a given charity, what are better and more relveant ways of getting involved? Honestly, I'm more likely to give money at a fundraising event than I am to a charity directly.

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Spearhead runs a number of fundraisers for various charities, where groups like BBT don't because they only raise funds for themselves. Why is this?

Perhaps because BBT is only part of the "bear community" and not the be-all and end-all of it? Because BBT members joined the club simply to have fun? Maybe because the fact that they're fat and hairy isn't directly relevant to anything charitable, and because they probably already contribute to charity in other ways anyway?

Other than donating funds myself to a given charity, what are better and more relveant ways of getting involved?

There are plenty of ways to help charity without trying to force a social group into being something more than it was ever intended to be.

"Other than donating funds myself?" Why do you exclude the most direct way? The alternative is volunteering to do something for a charity. They're always looking for volunteers. Trust me, they are.

Getting involved in charity is incredibly easy -- easier, in fact, than complaining that others aren't doing it.

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Bear groups are social groups, yes. The same could be said for some of the Leather groups out there too such as Spearhead. Spearhead runs a number of fundraisers for various charities, where groups like BBT don't because they only raise funds for themselves. Why is this?

The reasons for this, in Toronto, are historical. Bear Buddies Toronto was formed by a group of people who were members or supporters of Spearhead during the years when every Spearhead event you went to was a fundraiser for (usually) an AIDS-related cause (there were good reasons for this, which we could talk about in another thread, but suffice it to say that this is how it was: it felt like, every time you went to a Spearhead event circa 1989-1995 you were hit up for donations). The people who left Spearhead (many of them embittered) wanted to set up a club that was different, and one of the ways they chose to express that was by saying from the start that there would be no fundraising.

It was, in its own way, part of the burnout around carrying the whole burden of funding Casey House and the AIDS COmmittee of Toronto etc that many of us experienced in the early 90s - I used to purposely not go to events because I'd been caring for PWAs all day, the last thing I wanted was a guilt trip in my few hours off time. Also when I think about my own experience, somewhat typical, most of my friends from the mid 80s had died or were very sick by that point, and I wanted to escape that reality when I was socialising - not have my face rubbed into it yet again.

Another point that was valid for some people was that they had watched a small handful of leather people abuse public trust in the name of charity (I'll name names if we ever discuss this privately, but I imagine you can guess who I'm talking about) ... and so there was a distrust of the whole "in the name of charity" thing. Well, you and I too have personally been on the losing end of that scam.

Many of these reasons no longer apply - the government is putting real, if still insufficient, money into palliative care facilites and community supports; we have some therapies now, in the early days virtually all you could do was watch someone suffer and die; and we've had enough time to get through the dreadful sorrowful darkness that hung over us during those years. The communities themselves are now demanding that contests be handled differently, more openly and with greater accountability. But there's always inertia ... it's hard for a group to change direction so radically. There have always been club members who were into fundraisers, if you have the energy why not organise them? You don't need a titleholder, just a cohesive, creative team effort.

Other than donating funds myself to a given charity, what are better and more relveant ways of getting involved? Honestly, I'm more likely to give money at a fundraising event than I am to a charity directly.

I'd be curious to know why ... you know that when you give money directly to a charity, ultimately more resources end up in the hands of the people who need it and less money/energy gets spent putting on the glitz to make a spectacle.

OTOH, the value of the spectacle is that it builds community - it is a chance for people who have similar priorities to gather and meet, and if they're inclined, to connect and work on solving communal problems.

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OTOH, the value of the spectacle is that it builds community.
It is precisely this that I was trying to bring out. :)

And thank you for the history lesson. It certainly helps to put things into perspective.

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haenck.livejournal.com

Another problem here is that it is all relative.

One man's good buddy, swell person and all-around great guy, can be another's stuck-up, egomaniac, A-list bear prick from hell.

It depends often on where you are in the pecking order and the hierarchy of perceived attractiveness. And to the extent you buy into the system. People who are hell-bent on emulating the A-List are probably going to be less critical of the system that creates them.

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Ah, well said. No matter how much of a "nice guy" you try to be, your actions can be mis-contrued as such.

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notofthisworld.livejournal.com

Wow, it all sounds so high school.

Someone on LJ (I can't remember who, unfortunately) used to call them "Heather Bears", after that movie Heathers. (The one where the school social scene revolved around bitchy rich girls named Heather.) I totally see the similarities now.

I don't mean to be mean, but I'm going to place another tick next to my "coming out equals re-entering adolescence" theory.

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That was me, but I got it from my friend Claude (http://claudecub.blogspot.com/).

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notofthisworld.livejournal.com

Oh, cool. :-)

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