People are people

[nfotxn]

Gay men are so _________.

There's definitely differences between staight and gay culture. But the sweeping generalizations gay men make about themselves are usually less insular then they think. I know lotsa straight guys that are more vain than the prissiests of twinks and think just as much with their dicks. They just happen to be thinking about women, which doesn't effect me. If you want to generalize your sex, go right ahead. But talking about your own sexuality that way is very self-loathing. Internalized homophobia anyone?

Dammit if he weren't gay he'd be such a better person. It's that dick sucking that makes him a jerk.

It's this sort of half-witted liberalism that I really can't stand. I am definitely a left-leaning person but I'm always encoutering these positions. They are definitely feminist/egaliterian/freedom influenced but not thought out. Girls who use their sexuality as a weapon, straight people who are all for queer rights.. as long as they're out of arms reach and nowhere near their children and fags who are "out" but don't dare demand their human rights and wallow in self-loathing. I don't mean to imply that the one true way is through me.. but think people! Nothing gives fascist dictators more clout than people who don't think through what they say and stand for.

Comments

[folkyboy.livejournal.com]

i had to learn that the hard way

[mathan.livejournal.com]

A certain guest of ours tried to say recently that gay people were the chosen ones, and that if you're gay, you're so much further ahead.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about gay culture over the past two years, and know what? Our guest was full of shit and I pointed out to him how wrong he actually is.

We're different in some ways, but honestly, we're more similar than we want to admit, these days.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Oh I don't believe that superiority bullshit for a second. I'm very much an egalitarian in that regard. For each advantage being queer has there's great dis-advantages. Socially and economically straight people have great advantages despite having to "bridge the gap between the sexes". That's the only real difference, the sex of your partner. Any other differences are subjective or due to the defficient human rights queer people still have.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?

Re: Blend until smooth...

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

Mr. Hat, no! marryewana is the first step into a life of crime!

[cub4bear.livejournal.com]

"Gay men think so much more with their cocks instead of their friends"

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Ironically my friends and I were thinking the same thing when we read that it seems.

Personally I'm working on harnessing the thinking power of all my friends such that I can crack encryption ciphers for Al Queda.

JIHAD!!

[dirtyglamour.livejournal.com]

It suprises me how many people don't think through what they stand for. I have always believed that you should know what you believe in so that if you are called upon to defend what you believe, you can and will.

[ex-rictor835.livejournal.com]

We bought into western culture.

There was a time not too long ago when gay men were doing some fantastic social analysis because we were outcasts and that gave us an edge. Now that we can have a piece of "the pie", we are just another commodity. Rainbows, Queer As Folk, BEst Chest contests... that's our legacy now. Same-sex marriage?! Why the fuck is that our big thing?

Until we reject all that shit, we're just another issue of Tiger Beat.

Gay marriage: THUMBS DOWN

[cub4bear.livejournal.com]

"To be forced back into the heterosexual cage of coupledom [via gay marriage] is not a step forward but a step back into state-imposed definitions of relationship. With all that we have learned, we should be helping our heterosexual brothers and sisters out of their state-defined prisons, not volunteering to join them there."

--Jane Rule

Re: Gay marriage: THUMBS DOWN

[ex-rictor835.livejournal.com]

That Jane... she can sure sum things up!

Thanks for that quote, Dave, I'll definitely use it again!

Re: Blend until smooth...

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

I think I've posted this URL before, but it's worth going back to:

http://www.rbebout.com/getfree/index.htm

It's Rick Bébout's page about the idea of marriage in general, and gay marriage in particular, and includes a link to the Jane Rule article. Rick & Jane came from the same klatch, creators of The Body Politic. He examines this issue in some depth. It is IMO deeply interesting reading.

Re: Blend until smooth...

[haenck.livejournal.com]

This is interesting stuff.

I've never really formulated much of an opinion on the subject.

I just remember having to go through a lot of hoops to get a former employer to provide health benefits to same-sex domestic partners. Of course, I then never used said benefits.

Re: Gay marriage: THUMBS DOWN

[notofthisworld.livejournal.com]

Right. Because everyone knows that marriage was something heterosexuals invented to oppress themselves.

Re: Gay marriage: THUMBS DOWN

[cub4bear.livejournal.com]

Hahahahahahahaha!

[haenck.livejournal.com]

[Marc has been listening to the Flaming Lips over and over and over and...]

People are always going to generalize. It's just a thing that we do to make information more manageable. The problem occurs when you are so enamoured of your generalizations that you cannot process things that don't fit with them or blindly assume they determine how the world works.

The term Internalized Homophobia takes me back to U-M's Confer system back in the mid to late '80s. Then, it was (pardon my use of this term- ) a P.C. SmartBomb that was tossed out to shut down all debate on any topic relating to "Gay Life". Much as the term "racist" was the SmartBomb used to smother all debate that even touched on matters of race.

The "racist" SmartBomb has proven so effective that there essentially no meaningful discourse on race, at least at U-M. Just copious amounts of hang-wringing about the Law School Admissions Policy and the like.

I am never quite sure when you are being ironic or not- so maybe this was intended, but to me the term "internalized homophobia" is quite representative of the half-witted liberalism that you are saying you are against.

[cub4bear.livejournal.com]

I am never quite sure when you are being ironic or not- so maybe this was intended, but to me the term "internalized homophobia" is quite representative of the half-witted liberalism that you are saying you are against.

.... because, as we know, it's impossible for someone who's gay to have internalized the heterosexist, homophobic assumptions that society foists on them from birth!

So what would you think of someone who throws out one-liners like "gay men are all catty queens" or "gay men think only of cock?"

[haenck.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying there aren't self-loathing cranks in the world, but the phrase "internalized homophobia" has been abused to the point that it crashes into my ears with about the same validity as "gay men are all catty queens".

Maybe it once meant something, but now it just seems like a rhetorical cheap-shot. I don't disagree with Brodie's point, but in a sense by dredging up such a tired chestnut- it's like sinking to the same level as folks who whine "gay men think only of cock".

[cub4bear.livejournal.com]

I guess I have a different point of view. I don't think the label is useless just because it's been abused any more than I think "racist" is a useless term because it has been abused.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with generalization as long as they're based on observation. When you generalize you create a dichotomy of two or more groups. It demonstrates shitty observational skills to make sweeping statements about gay men when you're not scrutinizing straight men or any other distinct parts of a whole population for that matter. That's what I mean by half-witted.

It's only a guess (but probably an accurate one IMHO) that fags today are so quick to self-scrutinize because that message of being different is so strong. My prespective on contenporary queer rights (like many others in including rick's statment) is the that most people are placated with symbolic acceptance.

I'm sorry to hear you find those mentioned terms so hackneyed. It's a real shame 'cause there's no denying those problems still exist.

Re:

[haenck.livejournal.com]

I hope you are not implying that I am denying that those problems do not exist.

But yes, I do find some of the terminology so loaded to the point of being counter-productive. People all too often give in the temptation to portray those who disagree with them with loaded terms that demonize.

"Racist!" "Self-hating!"

Are there racists. Yes. Are there self-hating people? Yes. But overuse of such terms to trump the opposition is a cheap way to shut off debate. Thoughtful people aren't going to want to get tarred by such epithets and they shut up and soon the only discourse you have are techy folks shouting "Racist!" and "Self-hating!"