What ever happened to the fat guys?

[nfotxn]

From Big Fat Hairy Living:

Take a look at the pictures from Lazy Bear 2004, a bear circuit party in California. How many guys over 250 pounds are in those pictures? What happened to all the fat guys? Is it just me, or does it look like a bunch of fat-but-not-too-fat rich white guys who work out a lot and have lots of money to travel around the continent for sex? Would someone over 250 pounds be given a second glance by anyone there?

It is inevtiable that anything of value will ultimately be taken by the rich, powerful and beautiful. I think it sucks that more and more as somebody who doesn't work out I am made to feel shamed around my supposed peers. And don't kid yourself for a second, muscles = money. Anything desireable has a cost.

I think it would be fun to jam shit up at one of these bear runs. What smacks of classism and pretension is always ripe for ridicule and whimsy.

Comments

[fredneckteddy.livejournal.com]

Fat guy here :) It's funny, I'm too big for bears and the only chasers I find are those that want me to get bigger....UGH!

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Yup, that kinda fascism comes out when everybody is so stuck-up on themselves.

[bigbadlad.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I kinda figured the definition for bear had gotten tighter a while back when I had some guy comment that he hates chubby guys like me, because we "stole" what being a bear was and made it "ugly".

I think it's ridiculous to say that there even is a "community". What may initially have been a uniting factor has become just another check point in the process of elimination....It is classism and pretense, made dramatically pathetic by the fact that often the people who bitch the loudest are looking around manically, trying to harness attention and/or other folks' validations.

Just my very humble, and fat, opinion.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

I am really sick of people so narrowly defining what turns them on. Of course if you're going to be a fucking nazi about what you think is hot there's gonna be lots that isn't attractive to you. But bitches get all indignant when you suggest that perhaps their taste is somewhat maleable and being so fixated on a certain kind of body is only going to make them (and others) miserable.

[bigrock.livejournal.com]

I went to lazy bear in 2003. It was fun, and i got enough 'glances'. It was annoying that so many were little guys. I like beef on them bones. :) The event does seem to be less and less bear, and more and more small muscle guys who happen to be hairy. I had more fun in London anyway :)

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Yeah but you are also dead sexy so there's no real problem there. You bring up a good point though. I am all about all types of guys getting together it's just that the more muscley guys tend not to like to have the "ugly" fat guys or even normal guys around.

[xkot.livejournal.com]

You're right on about muscles equalling money. In order to spend as much time in the gym as a lot of guys do, you've got to have a job that allows you to afford things like a gym membership AND gives you plenty of spare time to endlessly pump iron while also having time to cook healthy meals (or pay someone else to cook healthy stuff for you, so no fast food).

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Let's not forget supplements and personal trainers. And let's not kid ourselves, lots of those guys aren't exactly building their physiques entirely *ahem* naturally. So factor in drugs as well. Those are the costs.

[iahklu.livejournal.com]

your observation is exactly why i've managed to miss every lazy bear weekend. in some ways it's the pinnacle of what i see as the decline in the original ideals of the bear "community".

perhaps it is inevitable that over time any group of humans will self-select into hierarchical groups. it sure seems to happen. the unfortunate result is that many of the people who were drawn to the group in the first place because it enabled them to find a welcome harbor from a greater community where they felt left out are now excluded for the second time, by those they thought were their true peers.

i know plenty of guys who've distanced themselves from "the whole bear thing" as a result.

i still think "bear" serves an important purpose...it does enable men to feel that they are ok even though they don't look like the mainstream physical ideal. but organized bear events seem to be more and more about muscles & looks.

to quote from a particularly insightful scholar (yeah it was me) in the bear book(1997):

"If Bearish men flocked to magazines like Bear and American Bear becuase they felt excluded when looking at images in other magazines, what happens when they see [...] a parade of "superbears" -- men of ideal Bearish beauty? What are the psychological consequences of joining the Bear community to feel lincluded, only to turn around and feel as though one somehow does not measure up physically as a Bear? Men in this position have now been doubly wounded -- they did not measure up to the ideal of male beauty represented in traditional gay media, and now they feel linferior within the Bear community."

did i call that one or what? ;-)

sorry for going on...this is something i have strong opinions about.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Sing it sister. And it is an important point that feeling a sense of inclusiveness is such a rare thing. Anywhere. Luckily "the whole bear thing" I think has been quite the learning experience for a lot of men. There's much to be learnt about human nature and even ourselves when we engage in these groups. I know the outcome for me as been a much better identification of my characteristic strengths and weaknesses.

[backrubbear.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that muscle/beef isn't the same as gym muscle. Some of the nicest, beefiest and most solid guys I've met got it because they actually used their bodies to earn their living - and I don't mean working the street corners. And that look, often beer gut and all, is what seems to peg most people as "bear".

If you're hanging out around folk that are making you feel uncomfortable for not being like they are, you're around the wrong set of folk. And face it - that'll be the same whether you're talking bears, musclebears, chubs, twinks or even computer programmers. :-)

I've posted before in my own and other folks journals that the thing I liked best about being bear is I wasn't expected by the stereotype to go bashing on the way folk look. For most "twinks" that I've met that match the stereotype, they seem to get an instruction manual on how to put down everyone that doesn't fit their ideals. If the folk you know that are beating down on someone because they don't look or act a particular way, they're just a funny shaped twink.

For the most part, I'm not attracted to thin guys, although there have been exceptions. The huskier and beefier end of the spectrum is what catches my attention, usually with some body hair. Muscles push all my buttons.

But if the person I'm attracted to has a bad personality, it doesn't matter how pretty they are. That personality is a bigger turnoff than anything else.

To take your original premise a slightly different direction, I think what is being seen these days is a blurring of borders. "Bear" started being cool. Muscle bear let some of the sorts who had otherwise been hanging with the twinks but actually had to use a razor on their chests stop doing it. This worked the other way too where the ones who never wanted to shave their chests could start hanging with folk that would otherwise ostracise them.

So, let's hear it from a blurring of the gay rainbow. See how the bitchiness runs through all the colors.

[dizzi-d.livejournal.com]

But if the person I'm attracted to has a bad personality, it doesn't matter how pretty they are. That personality is a bigger turnoff than anything else.

I like lots of "types" too, but I think it's safe to say that I have finally found an ideal...

[kubster.livejournal.com]

I'd thought about going because I knew some people who would be there. I woudln't call it the "rich bears" getaway, because the registration was under $100 to go. The events here in Oregon are way more expensive than that. Some of them get up to $250 just to go camping for 4 days.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it all becomes rather exclusive. I know personally that my chances of being able to afford this stuff and keep up with my financial obligations as a young person are pretty fucking slim.

[mathan.livejournal.com]

Can't say much about the pics, but I will say that there are a LOT of guys who go to Lazy Bear that i talk to that are of all kinds of sizes, "class", income and body shape.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Prove it.

[chrisglass.livejournal.com]

I've always gone to bear runs and been ridiculed for being too thin.

"What are you doing here toothpick?" one feller said.

Here's my 100% beef: I'm tired of BEAR = WEIGHT MASS of any sort.

It bores me.

[dizzi-d.livejournal.com]

It's funny how that happens. There's always something. He's too big. He's too small. He's too handsome. He's too intimidating. He's too shy. He's a player. He's in a clique. He's too A-list.

All usually said by someone who'd rather sit off to the side and complain rather than get off their ass and engage people in friendly conversation. It's easier to judge someone without... you know... putting any effort into meeting them :)

[callingzero.livejournal.com]

Thank you, thank you.

At 6', 155 lbs, with a hereditary thin frame, and negligible hair between my waist and neck, I'm labelled a "twink" in some "Bear(tm)" crowds by people who have yet to meet me.

The double-standard of Bearness(tm) being "all-inclusive" can be pretty irritating, but I also know that at least some within these groups can actually back that up. (And I should point out that even though I was braced for it, I picked up almost no attitude going to IBR for the first time this year.)

Yet, on the other hand, I find it amusing to visit a Bear group and find few people I would classify as bears, but so what? What are the qualifications? How many sub-groups do people need to find that sweet spot of exclusion?

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

I do hope you continue going ... there are always people like me at runs who are sitting around just waiting for anyone with intelligence and a spark of wit.

[chrisglass.livejournal.com]

I should go on...

I find it somewhat amusing that Big Fat Hairy Living points out pictures on BearsGoneWild's site...

I think it would be fun to jam shit up at one of these bear runs. What smacks of classism and pretension is always ripe for ridicule and whimsy....

If there's any culture jamming going on, I think it's this BGW mindset. Big rich muscle men might get uncomfortable when outta shape and all over the board fellers with tanktops and drag go around their campsites whoopin and hollerin.

It's a better way to jam shit up than, say, blogging about it without offering options.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

It's a better way to jam shit up than, say, blogging about it without offering options.

I was actually totally hoping to incite that kind of discussion. Hence the wording. However there are a lot of hurt feelings too so I think people are entitled to a little bit of a bitchfest.

[profundis.livejournal.com]

Awww! Someone needs a hug!

Actually, I somewhat disagree

[jawnbc]

though I get your point, ye wee shite disturrrrrberrrrr.

LazyBear is a mostly SF phenom: it's organized by bears from around there (Sacramento), and more guys from SF go than from probably everywhere else. And most of the out-of-towners are linked to the SF bear scene.

SF has always been a 35+ professional, white, , gym-going, raunchy gay male scene. Flirting there is the equivalent of "hello" anywhere else, and the bear scene guys tend to be polite and friendly. Take any of those things out and you're on the periphery. Take 2 or more and you're on the outisde. It's not indicative of anything but SF. Neither is IBR, though both events have some cachet outside SF.

As a 40 year old, professional, white, lazy-arsed, raunchy guy, I can find the whole thing dehumanizing. On the other hand, a lot of the guys you're talking about were once none of these things and have made changes in their life towards thing. That's usually a good thing. I didn't ever really enjoy SF until I was in my late 30s.

And besides, they fat guys were there--just not in the photos you see.

A scene is just that: a staging, a front. Behind the scene are some really cool guys, who may not wanna fuck everyone they meet, but are often very nice to all but the unlikeable.

I've never considered myself a Bear, even though I'm active in a bear club. I hang out in the bear scene. Loosely.

Uh, that's not what I meant. Though I can't deny it neither--talk to my solicitor.

[gusmacroy.livejournal.com]

There were tons of nice people there of all sorts of body shapes and incomes, and I felt like the one who was being brusque with some people who were being really friendly with me just because I felt out of sorts. Then again, there was totally a 250+ non-muscle bear guy from out of town who has bedded three of my friends in the last week, who I drove home from trannyshack with one of those friends, who didn't remember having met me when I bumped into him in Guerneville. Fat doesn't equal altruism or a propensity for social justice.

The music was awful by the pool at Fife's. That was very circuit-party like.

give me real vs. superficial anyday...

[pup-ajax.livejournal.com]

... and if 'real' is fat, then i'll take it!

Muscles are only okay if they don't come with 'tude.

[koobear.livejournal.com]

"I'm too fat to be a twink, too thin (by this post *tease*) to be a bear, too hairy/not hairy enough for some, some like my facial hair, others find it gross, I'm too young/too pretty/not pretty enough, etc. "

WHAT?!?!?!
WTF?
You're beautiful the way you are!
You're cute (really cute, actually...).
You're literate! (not all can say that on LJ).
And you're obviously creative.
Franky, anyone who says that you're not "enough of this or that" can go and royally fuck themselves.

[sinnabor.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.

Yea, Lazy Bear has a muscle-bear following. But it doesn't bother me.

It's a particular fetish. One that requires work, and frequently illicit drugs. (Lots of purplish-looking tans around.) And the guys that do it are into each other... because that's their fetish.

But it's not my fetish. It looks nice in the abstract, but the reality is kinda twisted. It's not about simply being masculine anymore - it's about continuous maintenance of a fantasy male body image. The big pumped guys are often exposing a dedication based on a desperation of sorts. Yea, they look good. No, they're not less fucked up. (And I think in many cases looking good is a substitute for social skills.)

You can have plenty of fun at Lazy Bear without standing around the pool in your Speedos flexing. It doesn't show up in Lazy Bear pictures as much, though, because beefcake sells. Seemingly everybody has a touch of the healthy/muscly guy fetish, so it makes a good common ground for porn.

It's also fun to notice the guys who were big and pumped last year, but have apparently gotten tired of the regimen. They deflate quickly.

I was mostly disappointed with the beards. Very few big dense beards. Fashion has turned to short goatee things, which don't thrill me that much.

Difference Can Be Sexy.

[plaidninja.livejournal.com]

I think there's an erronious assumption in what you, (and Dave), wrote that people who have muscles would not want to have sex with someone who is fat. Just yesterday I heard someone who went to Lazy Bear and also happens to be dripping with muscles remark that he was dissapointed that there were hardly any fat guys there. Now, did most of the people at Lazy Bear feel the same way too? Probably not, but I think assuming that because there are not many fat people at this event that fat people are not welcome is problematic. Does every single person attending a Bear Run have to want to have sex with you before it becomes a worthwhile event to attend?

I'll freely admit that I still have my own pent up angst,(Go on, think back to how impossible I was to be arround when I was always whining that nobody would ever love me because I was too skinny and ugly.), about not fitting into the Bear Mold Of Perfection but neither my looks nor my bitterness stopped me from finding good freinds and a beautiful man to love me.

There's a strange mindset in the Bear community that since everyone looks the same they must think the same too. This mindset actually leads to some of the fat guys in the bear community that dig on guys like me getting shit on for committing the crime of, *gasp*, liking skinny guys. Most people are assholes no mater what shape they wear, but why should their opinions and behaviour ever make a difference in your life or Dave's? Even if, and I doubt this, having huge muscles is a requirement for attending Lazy Bear weekend, it's certainly not a requirement for finding people to love you. I think you two are both proof positive of that.

bingo

[clauditorium.livejournal.com]

I've been trying to find the right words to express my feelings about this, but it looks like you already did it for me.

[thafuzz.livejournal.com]

This sort of sentiment prompted Paul armusbear to start a local cub youth group here in Detroit. 'What about the poor, young gay guys who aren't into expensive dinners at the Whitney followed by a sex party in a local no-tell motel?' he asked himself once. The rest is history...

I've met that strange bear clique-iness recently when I learned that a few acquaintances would probably have made their move if I weighed 300 lbs. And to think that I was one of the more fetching young men at the Eagle, inspite of often being mistaken for a bulemic! *sigh*

I agree that one of the more frustrating aspects of LJ is reading the seemingly endless fabulous adventures of the older, more well to-do (or the younger one who've convinced themselves they're well to-do and are actualy wallowing in credit card debt.) 'Where's my trip to San Francisco?' 'Why am I not going to see Madonna?' 'How come I don't have an iPod?' Ahh, these questions overwhelm me sometimes. I feel as though I'm not only missing out on this allegedly fulfilling retail therapy lifestyle, but that I'll also never learn how to get into the financial situation when I can indulge in such a lifestyle.

My point? Eh, I guess I don't really have one, other than I sympathize.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

No, I'm glad you have the same perspective as I do. I think it's indicative of our narcissistic ego driven modern lives how superficially boastful weblogs can become. I know personally I strive to communicate some soul and life experience rather than wallow in the material, most of the time.

Ultimately I think people with our perspective are more satisifed in life however. Large heated Livejournal discussions in general always tend to point out to be how many people do not understand the importance of a dissentful voice.

[duncan02.livejournal.com]

Any community where one's looks (or the look you're attracted to) is a major factor for the community's existence will always be struggling with these issues.

[backrubbear.livejournal.com]

As dizzibear has often said about bear clubs: The only thing the club is really about is a group of people who like to have sex with people that look like this.

I can't say that he's wrong, but pulling the other "good" stuff out of that 800-lb gorilla is damned hard. Thankfully it's worth doing much of the time.

[ericdabear.livejournal.com]

why yes! Let us now swing to the opposite extreme and crash the run with self-loathing which is displayed in fits of misplaced anger and disgust.


Dudes, everyone seriously needs to chill. And I am over 250lbs.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

I think you are overly simplifying the situation.

[shawnsyms.livejournal.com]

B: Thanks for hosting an interesting discussion.
S.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I'm glad you understand the original intention!

Oh grow up

[mondragon.livejournal.com]

"I am made to feel shamed". What a bunch of crap.

No one owes you a social group, or owes you sex, or to find you attractive.

Sometimes, no matter how much you want it to be, it's not always about *you*.

Re: Oh grow up

[backrubbear.livejournal.com]

Well, 'tis his journal. Of course it's all about him. :-)

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

Have you forgotten How To Be an A-List Bear? Jamming the bear thing for more than ten years.

But on the other hand, I wouldn't write that today. At this moment I'm not all that dissatisfied with what the bear thing is. There are some musclebear assholes, but I've met my share of those who are not, and I'd have to say that being a musclebear is not a good predictor of personality type, any more than being bearded, or a particular age, or income, or even gay. I've had so many surprises, pleasant and unpleasant, since I started persuing the bear thing in 1989.

And are you going to *let* them take away your vision of the community you want? You gotta fight - in whatever way works for you - to preserve and enact your values.

[nfotxn.livejournal.com]

I agree on all fronts and really if you read what I've written I only suggested that there is a continuing struggle to create the sense of community I invision. I think it's disappointing that I'm being somewhat misconstrued as being anti-health or anti-musclehead. I mean I'd be a hypocrit to say that it isn't desireable or a turn on. However I refuse to have the community I take part in being co-opted by the hairy gym bunny aesthetic. I mean the creation of popular images in a growing culture are probably inevitable. However it will always be a fight worth fighting for.

But maybe that's just me and my youthful idealism.

[iahklu.livejournal.com]

to me it feels less like a weight issue and more of an idealized-image issue. "bear", as it is presented in magazines and on the internet, has -- to my eye at least -- become a narrower and narrower definition, emphasizing and glorifying a smaller range of types.

for every guy who comes away from lazybear praising the lack of attitude, there is probably another guy who comes home feeling bad about himself because people treated him like he didn't really belong there due to his physical characteristics. i can't quote statistics, but i've certainly heard that from many guys over the years.

and yeah, self-esteem is a personal issue and some people's feeling of non-inclusion springs directly from their internal hang-ups...but i'm saddened by what i perceive as a tendency by some bears who find a great self-esteem boost in this community to take this too far and put down others who don't meet their physical standards.

those guys who were overweight little boys, and hairy, awkward adolescents all of a sudden find themselves as objects of desire...and after years of exclusion they end up in the position of being the excluders.

those who find themselves accepted in the community may not be aware of the marginalization that some men experience at events like this. but it's there. and yeah, some of it is strictly personal issues, but some of it comes from the spirit and atmosphere of the greater group.

and maybe it's inevitable when a community grows as big and as fast as this one has. maybe this is just what people do in self-defined groups. i never took sociology, but now i kinda wish i had!