Codependency
Sep. 15th, 2004 02:44 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
nfotxn“An emotional, psychological, and behavioral condition that develops as a result of an individual’s prolonged exposure to, and practice of, a set of oppressive rules” (Robert Subby);
“A set of maladaptive, compulsive behaviors learned by family members to survive in a family experiencing great emotional pain” (The Johnson Institute);
“A stressful learned behavior associated with an unhealthy focus on the needs of others and/or attempting to take responsibility for the behavior of others” (Brian DesRoches);
“We begin tolerating abnormal, unhealthy, and inappropriate behaviors. Then we go one step further, we convince ourselves these behaviors are normal” (Melody Beattie).
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Date: 2004-09-15 02:16 am (UTC)PS Melody Beattie and John Bradshaw should be in prison. And not kountry klub prison neither.
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Date: 2004-09-15 02:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 03:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 03:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 03:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 07:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 09:30 am (UTC)I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-15 10:12 am (UTC)And what do you say to the adult who, when he finally gets free of that situation, wants to live a normal life?
Let me give you a rule on the answer: You can't use the expression "You only have to. . ." or any similarly reductive expression.
Re: I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-15 03:31 pm (UTC)Good point...akin to the one I was dancing around. That kid's experienced abuse, plain and simple. And no doubt needs to rework his thinking/feeling towards a healthier way of interacting. Otherwise he's probably very vulnerable to manipulation and abuse by others.
But does characterizing him as co-dependent really address that? I don't think so. Beattie, in particular, conflates all sorts of imperfect or messy interpersonal dynamics as being codepency. Arguably many are the necessary bumps and stumbles of learning how to an adult.
My concern is really for kids like the one you describe here. Almost always they need good, solid professional support to work through such issues--not a self help book, or a 12 step programme (on its own). Sadly I've known a few folks whose lives have been brutal, who clung to the notion of "having to work through my codependency" and who eventually suicided.
Jeez I opened a can of worms here. . .
Re: I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-15 05:21 pm (UTC)Re: I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-15 05:49 pm (UTC)Re: I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-15 06:15 pm (UTC)I realize that you are speaking off the cuff, but you have not made any distinction between people who are fundamentally sane but who have internalized somebody else's insane behavior (co-dependents), and people who suffer from mental illnesses like clinical depression, schizophrenia, etc. Nor do you indicate that "co-dependent" is possibly more useful to describe a behavior or set of relationships than it is to describe a psychiatric condition.
Maybe you did not intend it, but your first statement really made you sound like an arrogant, self-important prick. I am satisfied to bracket that impression as the result of infelicitous wording on your part and my own bigoted perceptions on mine. I do suggest, however, that there might be some benefit to allowing garden-variety psychological poultices to people with a simple rash, and invasive medical intervention for people who are clinically depressed, suicidal, or otherwise mentally ill.
Re: I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-15 06:34 pm (UTC)Then you're critiquing that I didn't say enough? Alrighty . . .
Rather than generic, toothless poultices, why not encourage folks to focus on actions and reactions?
The jail time refers to the fact that both she and Bradshaw plagiarized sections of AA and Al-Anon literature, knowing well that neither organization would ever sue to protect copyright (tradition of avoiding public controversy). A mere citation of the sources would've sufficed.
Re: I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-15 10:51 pm (UTC)You used the example of the two suicides as a reason, at least suggestively, for dismissing the use (or perhaps just the ab-use) of concept of codependency. That is why I suggested making a distinction between mildly messed-up people who just need a little direction, and clinically depressed people for whom codependency is possibly the least of their problems. Clearly the concept isn't universally useful or applicable.
Sorry to butt heads on this. It seems we do have far more areas of agreement than disagreement. I just find it, when well used, a very useful concept for pulling your head or yourself out of a life that is out of control for some reason. It also expands the concept of addiction to things other than alcohol, popularizes the vocabulary outside of the stigma of substance abuse, and encourages people to evaluate the honesty of their interactions with the world.
Re: I never left a bruise
Date: 2004-09-16 05:33 am (UTC)I remember one guy I used to sponsor. Aboriginal guy, stunningly handsome, HIV, bouts on the street, schizophrenic and living with a violent abusive twerp of a "lover". This young fella really wanted to "be good" meaning stay sober, but his plate was too full. So he'd go to meetings, and talk about all this stuff, and people--plural--suggested he read Beattie and "deal with his co-dependence, the real problem." And this guy actually took that on: viewing the domestic violence as co-dependence.
And I guess that's why I posted what I did. Were folks with some sort of clue dispensing/proferring codependence as a frame to understand one's problems, this kind of thing probably would happen less (or maybe...not?). But the popular discourse on codependence has evolved into it being something that's conflated with any range of actions that displeases someone. Had he not asked me--or someone else in the rooms at the time--what would've happened to him if he delayed dealing with much more pressing issues?
OK, I'm blathering. I'll stop. I get where you're coming from and I think you do me.
I need also say that fella did alright. We got him proper mental health care, and his counsellor got him out of the abuse, into a stable living environment, off heroin (though he still drank and smoked weed; harm reduction rather than total abstinence), and he got a fair bit of a life.
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Date: 2004-09-15 02:30 am (UTC)That last definition struck home.
Funny to be realizing after the fact exactly how crazy one's ex made one.
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Date: 2004-09-15 09:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 06:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 06:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-15 07:02 am (UTC)Sounds like love to me.
Also organized team sports and most workplaces. And the Lone Star.
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Date: 2004-09-15 07:42 pm (UTC)It's a fine line, it seems. Someone once told me that co-dependency is when you need the person more than you want the person, and hence, love is when you want the person more than you need the person.
But I dunno. What if you want a person but don't need them at all? That doesn't sound like love to me.
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Date: 2004-09-15 01:10 pm (UTC)2. Dysfunctional
3. Martyrdom
4. Denial
Backstory..
Date: 2004-09-16 02:41 am (UTC)*EMBRACE*